In an Obvious Rebuilding Year, the Pittsburgh Pirates' Youth Should Be Served
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No beat writer at the Bellagio is going to accuse the Pittsburgh Pirates of being big-time players for the hot-ticket free agents at this year's winter meetings. Instead, Neal Huntington and Co. have been sticking a toe in the shallow end of the player pool, testing the waters with utility types such as Mark Loretta and David Eckstein.
The attention-grabbing headlines tied to the team are all related to sending away major-league talent, not bringing it in. Jack Wilson to the Dodgers, Tigers or Twins; Ian Snell to the Nationals; Paul Maholm and Nate McLouth to the Braves. The most persistent trade rumors focus on the Pirates' interest in restocking their top prospect list, and no veteran is seemingly off limits.
The casual fan would probably be more interested in seeing the Pirates linked to Jon Garland or Pedro Martinez, Bobby Abreu or Adam Dunn. And part of me thought earlier this winter that signing a recognizable name or two might not be a terrible idea: Secure a talented veteran presence capable of leading a youthful clubhouse and driving ticket sales. The last time MLB's general managers were stingy with cash was 2003, when the Pirates signed Kenny Lofton, Reggie Sanders and Jeff Suppan and won 75 games (their highest total of this decade).
But given that the Pirates appear to be truly rebuilding for the first time in a couple general managers' terms, I've turned to supporting the notion of running out a baby-faced lineup. Even though much more work remains to be done, the organization boasts a sufficient number of developing starters and a growing group of legitimate prospects.
What if on April 6, 2009 at Busch Stadium in St. Louis, these 25 men were your Pittsburgh Pirates?
Catcher: Ryan Doumit
Infield: Steve Pearce, Brian Bixler, Luis Cruz, Andy LaRoche
Outfield: Nate McLouth, Andrew McCutchen, Brandon Moss
Bench: Robinzon Diaz, Jordan Brown, Robert Andino, Doug Mientkiewicz, Nyjer Morgan
Rotation: Paul Maholm, Ian Snell, Tom Gorzelanny, Zach Duke, Ross Ohlendorf
Relief: Matt Capps, Tyler Yates, Eduardo Morlan, Sean Burnett, Evan Meek, Craig Hansen, Phil Dumatrait
Mientkiewicz, 34, and Yates, 31, would be the only players on the Opening Day roster over the age of 28. And yet, the construction isn't beyond belief. These players have been proven capable of producing in Triple-A. Now they need to prove worthy of major-league spots and of consideration in Che's long-term plans.
It's the tweeners who would see the most benefit in a full-on youth movement, in my estimation. Huntington would get a clear view of exactly what Pearce, Bixler, Cruz, Diaz and Morgan can do when given extended playing time without any pressure at the highest level. If and when prospects are ready to be promoted, no one would be blocking their paths. Sink or swim.
To make this work, Huntington would need to find new homes for Ronny Paulino, Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson and John Grabow. Finding takers wouldn't be an issue; only finding adequate returns would be. LaRoche, Sanchez and Grabow still have good value, and so I'd expect about five or six solid prospects total in trades. Paulino and Wilson could go more cheaply. At the end of the day, the Pirates would have saved millions of dollars in payroll which could be invested in another strong draft class and in more foreign scouting and signings.
While Huntington won't go to this extreme, it will be interesting to see how he replaces those veteran players who are inevitably traded this offseason. Using a Rule 5 pick -- or even two -- to acquire talent on the cheap, plugging gaps with developing players: It's these types of moves that would really get me excited for 2009 and beyond. Put the free agent market out of mind for another year.
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32 Comments on "In an Obvious Rebuilding Year, the Pittsburgh Pirates' Youth Should Be Served"
#1
Posted by Cory Humes, December 10, 2008 8:36 PM
So long as I'm being completely unbelievable, here's how I'd bat that projected youthful nine:
McCutchen, CF
LaRoche, 3B
McLouth, LF
Doumit, C
Moss, RF
Pearce, 1B
Cruz, 2B
Bixler, SS
Maholm, SP
If the top six played to potential, the lineup could do enough to win a few games. Brown as a Rule 5 pick would split at-bats three ways with Moss and Pearce.
#2
Posted by Brian Cartwright, December 10, 2008 10:48 PM
Digging a little deeper down, if you're going to dump Freddy, I'd rather see Negrych or even Ford at 2b...Cruz can't hit at all. If Romak isn't lost in the Rule 5 draft, he can outhit Moss. And make room for Pedro Alvarez by then end of the year.
#3
Posted by Deaner, December 11, 2008 10:01 AM
Wow, that infield projection for April 6, 2009 is brutal.
#4
Posted by Cory Humes, December 11, 2008 11:50 AM
Brian,
Can't say that I disagree with you. I tried to balance what I think may work with at least a little bit of realism. If the Pirates give playing time to younger guys, I think they'll try "their" options first. But in a situation like this, may the best man win. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford, Negrych, Romak, Alvarez, Walker and a handful of arms in Pittsburgh if this came to pass.
Deaner,
Yep. I think the corners could be solid, but the Pirates up the middle would be weak. But: Given Huntington's commitment to finding replacement level middle infielders at the winter meetings, 2B/SS is the least likely place to see a true youth movement.
#5
Posted by john holland, December 12, 2008 1:06 PM
It has been a rebuilding year for The Pirates since 1994! Hello can we get somebody in there to turn this team around! Thanks
#6
Posted by BuccoMike, December 12, 2008 1:15 PM
Andy Laroche, Bixler, Cruz, Steve Pearce = Good God horrid. I don't mind see us sign Ramon Vazquez to play some third cause andy AAAA laroche i don't think is the answer and tather see him in AAA for a bit until he works on learning how to hit in the big league level. Ramon Vazquez with Pedro Alvarez at 3b is the way to go ease pedro in.Steve Pearce is a waste at 1b, he's another AAAA guy i would have tried to get Jordan Brown to play first more of a contact hitter, draws more walks better overall player. Cruz i don't mind at SS, great defensively with upside at the plate. Bixler another AAAA guy i would look either at shelby ford at 2b or look for another utility guy on the fa market who can play all spots until shelby ford is ready. The outfield is okay- little nyjer, mclouth, cutch lf to rf. Catcher spot is okay - doumit, jaramillo, robinzon diaz. loser of the 2nd spot going to AAA. Rotation - Maholm, ian snell, gorzo, karstens, ohlendorf with duke battling for the spot. Bully- t.j beam- long relief, left side- grabow, donnie veal, right side meek, yates, rumlo sanchez, loser of duke and ohlendorf in the bullpen - closer capps.
#7
Posted by john holland, December 12, 2008 1:16 PM
It is frustrating to watch this once proud franchise suffer because of cheap owners, horrible general managers (Bonifay, Littlefield and now Huntington) When they do have good, affordable players that want to stay in Pittsburgh (core players to build around) they trade them and get nothing. Examples Jason Bay, Xavier Nady (all had huge success in Boston and New York )and there salaries were so affordable. It is maddening to see small market teams like Oakland, Florida (two world titles) Minnesota be competitive every year and the Pirates field a triple AAA team. Now they want to trade Freddy Sanchez or Jack Wilson this organization is so fragmented and disorganized it is scary. Maybe 2011 ?
#8
Posted by BuccoMike in reply to comment from john holland, December 12, 2008 1:21 PM
Florida knows how to draft and stock pile talent same with the Rays since Friedman got there in 05. I hope with some of hires of the assistants to gm we had and Hal Morris now the leader of scouting in the midwest for us to hopefully upgrading the talent. Neal hire me to be an assistant to gm i can help in getting talent from other org. Our fab 4 core guys are old 3 of them i think are over 26, i think capps is like 25. We should have tried to pry schaffer from the ATL who is 22 and would be ready to play in the bigs either this year or next. Plus get some more young pitching for the others we need to be more involved in the dominican and venezula thats where the talent seems to be.
#9
Posted by Kozy in reply to comment from john holland, December 12, 2008 1:27 PM
You're missing the point completely. We got rid of Bay and Nady because we had no one to build around them. Until Huntington no GM we had knew how to rebuild so don't include Huntington with Bonifay and Littlefield. Huntington is doing it the right way. We got 8 guys in return for 3 at the deadline which creates depth and the potential for longterm success. Look at our draft this year. It's the most ballsy and best draft we've ever had and that was thanks in large part to Huntington and Coonelly. If you look at the A's and Twins, they draft and then trade their stars at the highest value ie Rich Harden, Dan Haren, Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, Johan Santana, etc... That's what the Pirates needed to do. How do we know Moss couldn't be another Jason Bay? He's got great patience, good batspeed, and he plays hard. Erase the Bonifay and Littlefield years from you're memory and realize that this is a new era. I guarantee you Huntington and Coonelly will build a contender that can last. Also, did you hear that they offered longterm contracts to Maholm, McLouth, and Doumit? Would old management have done that?
#10
Posted by Jimmy, December 12, 2008 1:43 PM
I'd love to see Pearce given a chance at 1st. The guy played more than two agmes in a row only in the last week of the season and hit 3 homers. How's a guy supposed to learn to hit off speed pitching when he's riding the pine?
If rebuilding is going to work, it has to be done properly. Start building the 2010 line up now, not in 2010. Committing to Adam LaRoche for a year and then letting him go as a free agent is pointless - might as well non-tender him. He'll hit for 2 months of the season and end up with some decent numbers, but thats about it. He'll get $7.5m or so through arbitration - and thats basically paying him for half a seasons worth of offense.
As for Jack, let him go to anyone who'll pay his full salary and spend the savings on the draft - we'd probably end up with better prospects that way anyway.
As for Ramon Vazquez - why spend $4m on a utility player when we're desperate for pitching. Spend that money on one of the two Japanese pitchers coming over. Both Kenshin Kawakami and Koji Uehara compare well to Hiroki Kuroda of the Dodgers - and would therefore be a definite upgrade on the majority of the rotation.
#11
Posted by Marc, December 12, 2008 1:46 PM
If the Angels whiff on Mark Teixeira if appears as if they are a good trading partner with the Bucs. Grabow and Adam LaRoche would be nice fits, and the Halos have a highly graded farm system and some MLB ready infield prospects (Erick Aybar, Shawn Rodriguez, Brandon Wood).
#12
Posted by john holland, December 12, 2008 1:59 PM
Kozy,
I disagree you have to have something to build around and Nady was a stud making only $3.5 million a year which is chump change. He wanted to stay and the 8 players they got are absolute garbage. You had the best outfield in the National league in Mclouth, Nady and Bay all affordable and all wanting to stay. Alvarez comes up soon add him to Sanchez and that outfield now it is looking better. They could have had Eric Byrnes a few years ago settled fat beer bellied Jeromy Burnitz. Huntington no better you will see ! Why didn't the Pirates go after Juan Rivera a good affordable young outfielder? Oh thats right we signed the much heralded Ramon Vazquez!
#13
Posted by john holland in reply to comment from Kozy, December 12, 2008 2:02 PM
Kozy read my post I replied to you reply later!
#14
Posted by john holland, December 12, 2008 2:10 PM
KOzy,
I am a huge Pirate fan born and raised in Pittsburgh but you are delerious if you think trading Bay and Nady for 8 players that other organizations (who know more about baseball) gave up on. They didn't even get the best player offered to them by the Yankees in the Nady deal which was Phil Coke ! Still think HUntington is going to be good ? JOhn
#15
Posted by Cory Humes, December 12, 2008 2:36 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys -- lots of good points mentioned, and some others that I disagree with. Either way, we'd love for you to bookmark the site and chime in on a regular basis. Check out the site's Manifesto for some more information on what we're doing here.
#16
Posted by BuccoMike, December 12, 2008 2:51 PM
We got the best player of the deal in Nady deal his name is jose Tabata and that's right he's 20 years old. Nady and Bay would be way to old by time the Pirates are competitive again. Doumit, Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez, Maybe even Paul Maholm and Nate Mclouth are heading down that road all are 26 and older the Pirates need to build with guys 20 to 22 years old AA or higher so when they get to the bigs they are 26 and older and already getting to the other side of there careers by the time we are competitive - Cutch 22, Tabata 20, Bryan Morris 20(i think), Pedro Alvarez 21 are the fab 4 core. Keep getting the young talent littlefield jr. oops i mean Huntington. Jordan Schafer would have been a nice get during this deadline i would have did a selling high on Maholm for Jordan Schafer straight up. Remember folks before the july 31st deadline we could have sold high on Jack Wilson for Jair Jurrjens(who went 13-10 with middle 3's era) but we didn't.
#18
Posted by Jimmy, December 12, 2008 3:13 PM
Great point there buccomike regard the Wilson for Jurrjens deal - but wouldn't you prefer to keep Maholm over McLouth? Schafer could walk into McLouth place in CF and play better defense. Although McLouth won a gold glove, he was the worst centerfielder according to the plus/minus system. McLouth would probably get more in return too.
If the front office are set on rebuilding, it needs to be a complete overhaul, not just trading a couple our better players and keeping the rest the same.
#19
Posted by john holland in reply to comment from BuccoMike, December 12, 2008 3:27 PM
Yeah the 20 year old Tabata was the best player(not a chance) with a horible attitude, lack of progression even the outfield starved Yankees gave up on him. the best player offered to the Pirates in the Nady deal was Phil Coke who came up late in the year for the Yankees and was lights out. You seemed to think all these twenty somethings are just going to step right in no way. Alavrez yes thats it. THA MAJOR POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS THE FANS ARE STARVING FOR A WINNER, ATTENDANCE KEEPS DROPPING AND WE HAVE BEEN REBUILDING SINCE 1994 TIME IS RUNNING OUT. THE KEEP PUTTING TRIPLE AAA TEAMS ON THE FIELD AND TRADING THE LEGIT MAJOR LEAGUERS THAT THEY DO HAVE.
#20
Posted by nyyfaninlaaland, December 12, 2008 3:33 PM
Never been here - a Yanks fan that follows the Bucs out of interest in small market ball.
Understand the concept you're going for, but not sure it's doable. The market don't seem to be clamoring for the guys you suggest moving - or the orgs demands are too high. Lots of talk about Wilson, but nothing coming to fruition, and openings are closing fast. Doesn't seem to be a market for Sanchez either - not many 2B openings. But maybe something could be done with SF or Wash. There's should be a market for Grabow, and perhaps for LaRoche. But I could see keeping either or both and hoping for draft picks - Grabow more likely to provide such - or wait until the deadline (same with the former 2) when demand might be heightened.
The '08 problem was the collapses by Snell and Gorzo. No rebound there, what's the point? Plus you didn't have the trades offering any pieces for the current lineup. I guess you're looking to stock the system, which needs doing, but your proposed middle IF is scary (Bixler doesn't look more than a backup at present, Cruz doesn't look ready either).
I'd see if SF would take Sanchez for Emmanuel Burriss plus ? - maybe they'd throw in Taschner if you sent them cash. Burriss could make moving Wilson later easier, especially if Ford seems ready for 2B later in the season, and Taschner would better enable moving Grabow. Or go to Wash for a contract swap for Nick Johnson IF (big if) they get Teixeira. Then moving LaRoche gets easier - signing Casey to platoon with Pearce is another option. LaRoche to who? There's plenty of market - all the "missed on Tex" teams. Balt, NYY, the Angels could offer good return suggested above, Seattle, maybe an expanded deal with SF.
But if the young pitchers don't come around you're really swimming upstream.
#21
Posted by john holland in reply to comment from BuccoMike, December 12, 2008 3:34 PM
Funny why the Pirates didn't bring up this 20 year old outfield can't miss sensation Tabata at the end of the year to take a look at him ?????
#22
Posted by john holland in reply to comment from nyyfaninlaaland, December 12, 2008 3:37 PM
Also a huge Yankee fan who lives in la I follow the Pirates because I was born and raised in Pittsburgh. What do you think of the Yankee moves so far ? If the get Cameron and Burnett I think they have a really good shot in 09 ? your thoughts
#23
Posted by Cory Humes in reply to comment from john holland, December 12, 2008 3:39 PM
John -- I think there needs to be some separation between Neal Huntington and Dave Littlefield/Cam Bonifay. It's hard to condemn him for their mistakes. In my opinion, this is the first legitimate rebuilding movement, and an extremely necessary one. If Jason Bay, Nady, Wilson, Grabow, etc. were all retained until 2010, the team would max out at maybe 75-80 wins, and 2011 and beyond would be an absolute mess.
#24
Posted by Cory Humes in reply to comment from nyyfaninlaaland, December 12, 2008 3:42 PM
nyyfaninlaaland --
Definitely agree with you. I don't THINK these trades will all be made, for the various reasons you cited. I only suggest that making them with lower expectations for returns in mind might kick-start the Pirates' youth movement. Holding out for an extra prospect in return for Jack Wilson just means you have three months less time to evaluate Bixler, Cruz, or a replacement player like Burriss.
#25
Posted by john holland in reply to comment from Cory Humes, December 12, 2008 3:58 PM
Cory,
I agree with you maybe I shouldn't lump Huntington in with Bonifay and Stumblefield but when his first move is brealing up one of the top outfields in the natinal league (Bay, Nady and Mclouth) ?? All were having great years and the Pirates were respectable in the first half and both were very affordable and wanted to stay in Pittsburgh. I think they could have built around that solid outfield and with Alvarez coming soon maybe unload Laroche and Grabow to the Angels for Aybar and Brandon Wood! Lets just say Huntingston first big move was not a good one :) So the jury is still out on Mr. Huntington Thanks John
#26
Posted by Cory Humes in reply to comment from john holland, December 12, 2008 4:04 PM
I actually loved the Nady and Marte for Tabata and depth deal -- he's still very young and is a big risk, but at the same time: Did you know who Jason Bay was when Littlefield dealt Brian Giles away for him? That turned out to be a great trade for the Pirates, and this one reminded me of it.
Bay for LaRoche and Morris is harder to call, but Andy was billed as a top prospect by every scout in the game. If his last name were different, I think fans would be more open to seeing how he progresses.
We won't know who "won" these trades for at least another year or two -- probably longer.
#27
Posted by john holland in reply to comment from Cory Humes, December 12, 2008 4:13 PM
Cory,
I'm thinking the Yankees know a little more about scouting and developing players than the Pirates and they gave up on Tabata. Even the outfield starved yankees didn't even call him up to take at look at him . They have called up guys like Brett gardner and Shelly Duncan. Adam laroch could be a good salary dump to the Angels. The fuure infield could be Jack Wilson, Freddy Sanchez, Pedro Alvarez (almost botched that signing too ) and some 1b who knows. Nady was having a great year making only 3.5 million and he was 29 30 ? so
#28
Posted by Cory Humes in reply to comment from john holland, December 12, 2008 4:43 PM
He wasn't at a point in his career where he would've been called up, even if the Yankees were high on him, John. He's what, 20 years old? They have players like Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner who are higher on the depth chart than Tabata was, if only because they have more minor-league experience.
Nady was having a career year and he was dealt for a high-end prospect. It was a fantastic trade, and I think Pittsburgh will realize that a few years down the line when Nady's on the bench somewhere and Tabata is a starting right fielder.
#29
Posted by Adam, December 13, 2008 12:00 AM
John,
Maybe you think the Angels will throw in Jered Weaver too? Come on. Just because we want these great prospects doesn't mean other teams are going to be willing to give them up. Lets give up Cutch and Walker for Paul Konerko and Cliff Politte. You wouldn't want to do that, would you?
We got what we could get in the deals we made. Maybe we could have gotten Cooke, but would we have been able to get Karsten, Russ, or the other Cutch if we did? Maybe one of them, even two. The deal was made to add depth. Tabata was a top notch prospect two years ago. Yeah, he had an attitude problem. Guess what, that's why we got him! If he get's his act together, he should be as good as Nady was within a couple years and has a much higher ceiling. It's a risk, yes but it is one that a team like the Buccos has to take. I'll admit, I'm not impressed by the Bay deal. Morris could be a very solid pitcher though. If he turns out to be another Maholom in a few years, will you still say this was a bad trade? I'm not a fan of Laroche but he does have some potential. Maybe worst case we can spin him for a number 4 or 5 starter. Guess what, we need that. Moss is a decent player. Cory's right, he could be the next Bay. I think his ceiling is more like the next Nady but that's not all that bad apparently.
Free Agents? It has to be mutual interest bud. Why would a FA want to come here right now? It's a tough situation. If the FA's that you're targeting struggle, there are young replacements that will be taking their playing time. Keep in mind that if a FA does come here, it will probably be on a one year deal. They're going to be looking for solid PT. Personally, I'd love to see Gomes come here since he was just non-tendered. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'm sure there are plenty of other teams out there that are better or have more of an opening.
What to expect for:
Wilson - avg prospect or two if we eat salary. Otherwise, avg at best.
Laroche - About the same as Wilson, maybe a little better
Sanchez - Where's the market? What's the value? He's not the best defensive 2B, hitting has regressed and is injury prone.
Grabow - We got Yates for Todd Redmond. A below avg prospect that has the potential of making it to the bigs but not a solid player. Think a step above for Grabow.
I think we need to temper our expectations. Also, don't believe every single rumor you hear. Who knows if we could've had Jurgins for Wilson, Howard for Benson, etc etc. Where you watching the games last year when Wilson was out? Personally, I'm still happy we didn't make that trade. The replacement guys weren't ready, still aren't.
It's fun to speculate who we can get in various trades. Keep in mind it's all speculation and usually unsubstantiated. We're not the GM.
#30
Posted by john Holland in reply to comment from Adam, December 13, 2008 3:54 AM
Adam,
Yeah i agree with you for the most part. But we have been rebuilding sinve 1994 waiting for all these 20 somethings to materialize! (some of those 20 year olds are 30 somethings now lol ) You can build with youngsters as long as you have talent there at the major league level. The Pirates every year trade guys like Nady and Bay who are in their primes for well garbage! Why not keep these guys who want to be in Pittsburgh, their salaries are totally affordable (especially Nady) and build around them with the Pedro Alvarez's,the Tabata's and maybe sign one decent free agent not named Jeromy Burnitz, Matt Morris or Derek Bell ! The Pirate fans aren't like the Steelers and Penguins fans and the four straight years of dwindling attendance proves that they wont stick out much more. It is a shame a beautiful ball park like PNC and a triple AAA team year after year. (Stargell and Clemente must be turning over in their graves) Here is a thought??***** How about hiring a manager with a winning tradition that can come in and change the losing attitude and culture ? I guess the Pirate GM's / Owners haven't thought of that they keep hiring guys like McClendon and Russell all inexperienced. Lets see when the Pirates have been good Chuck Tanner, Danny Murtaugh, Jim Leyland no non sense guys who are winners. (unlike the Pirates since 1994! )
#31
Posted by Kozy in reply to comment from john Holland, December 15, 2008 4:37 PM
We had no talent in the minors. To say we've been rebuilding since 1994 is to lump Huntington with Bonifay and Littlefield. Yeah, great, we had Bay and Nady and McLouth. Nady is a Boras client and was having a good year but he's still inconsistent in his career. Bay will command well over $10 million a year when his contract is up. We need pitching, we need depth in the minors, and we need to build from within. Having the best outfield in the majors doesn't help anyone if we have no pitching and no bats anywhere else. Don't call these guys garbage. Look at Bay, he was a 26 year old rookie with an MO very similar to Brandon Moss. You need be more optimistic and also reduce you're expectations for them in the short term.
#32
Posted by john holland in reply to comment from Kozy, December 16, 2008 11:45 AM
Look Kozy this is an organization years back that gave Jason Kendall $10 million a year! Please this organization is sinking faster than the Titantic. Youth is served huh where have I heard that before! This isn't the YMCA!
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